Tuesday, August 11, 2009

Ostfront Part III from Dan Carlin

For the umpteenth time I'm going to recommend checking out Dan Carlin's Hardcore History podcast. Check it out here - Dan Carlin - Dan Carlin's Hardcore History

For the past few months Dan has been recounting the unheralded (at least here in the west) story of the Ostfront - or the Eastern front of WWII - Hitler's colossal blunder to try and invade Russia.

These are but a few of the videos I found on youtube focusing on the Ostfront.








There are several excellent websites out there from the Russian point of view. One of the most interesting - and poignant - is here, which actually offers a fascinating view of Russian faith, history, and ideals.

The atrocities the Germans perpetrated upon the Russians as they tried to drive through the motherland to capture Moscow and then later the precious oil fields in the Caucasus region in the south is unimaginable. One effective strategy the Germans employed was an encircling tactic. They would advance in large circles, thereby surrounding huge portions of great numbers of people. One order Hitler made was that anyone caught behind enemy lines would be liquidated. Well, anyone caught inside these large circles were considered behind enemy lines. Thus, masses of innocent people were killed.

The German bombing of Stalingrad was equally brutal where thousands of civilians were killed.

The Russians, though, thanks largely to Stalin, had their own ghoulish ways of exacting revenge. Carlin cites an eyewitness account from a German soldier's point of view. They are marching across the steppes of Russia when they come across a strange path - or road - of ice. It just didn't seem like it belonged there. As the soldier looked down, he was met with the blue face of a German soldier with his eyes wide open staring up at him from beneath the ice. And there were dozens more of these soldiers buried under the ice. It seems the Russians needed a road. So they made the German prisoners lie down shoulder to shoulder. Then they hosed them down to create a road of ice and bodies.

Can you imagine?

The battle tactics practiced by both sides - ON THEIR OWN MEN - were particularly harsh. Hitler would refuse to yield the two Russian winters and lose thousands of men. He ordered superiors to shoot any deserters or soldiers who attempted to surrender.

Of course, Stalin did the same thing to his troops. In fact, Stalin's brutality was so harsh that he had many of his commanders needlessly throwing away the lives of their soldiers.

One example was his infamous order #227 - Not One Step Back. This order says that any Soviet troops moving back in an unauthorized fashion will be killed. Soon there will be two platoons in battle. The first fights the Germans while the second one checks for deserters and prepares to kill any who flee.

Can you imagine?

Carlin recounts one military entry that talked about a platoon of soldiers, many of whom had lived on the vast prairies in Russia and had little experience with large bodies of water and did not know how to swim, encounter a large Russian river, Carlin calls it the White Sturgeon.

The commander was ordered to cross it and begin fighting the Germans on the other side. Never mind that the soldiers might be better off behind this natural obstacle. But an order is an order. The commander orders a troop to cross the river. The man objects, having no such experience and not knowing how to swim. He will surely die.

The commander points the gun at him and tells him its better to drown a soldier than show insubordination. The man is forced into the water. He is taken by the current and drowned. As are all the others he orders in.

Better to lose men and follow an order than risk looking like you are defying high command, who fear that it will look like they have not been following high command, and so on and so on all the way to the very top.

The commander calls to his comrade major, who is, of course, outraged at having lost so many men - and without having heard a single shot. The commander states that they all drowned. At this the comrade major threatens to shoot him on the spot, just like this very commander had threatened to that first poor bastard who drowned. The commander explains that he lost all the men trying to cross the river that the major had ordered him to do - despite the commander stating that they had nothing with which to cross the river!

The major is furious at this block head who just destroyed an entire company of men. The major feels partly responsible and must call the colonel and report the loss.

The colonel is shouting at the major. He had given the major five hours to get his company across the river.

When told of the losses the men have encountered, the colonel is relieved. "If there were no losses our heads would roll," he states (the belief being that at least the died attempting to fight. Better that than not dying and looking like cowards to Stalin).

The colonel just wishes to know how the men died as he had not heard any weapons firing.

At this the major explains that the cucumbers, what the general soldiers was called, were all 'slant eyes' from the steppes who didn't know how to swim and who went in and drowned. The colonel is incensed. He states that HIS company has been dragging around pontoons all over the place for days! He would have given the major as many pontoons as he would have needed to get the whole company across the river safely.

The major explains that it's little use now since so few are left.

The colonel explains that they have to cross anyway because what counts is not how many died but that the order was carried out.

This is how large numbers of men had their lives wasted out of fear of Stalin.

But the stories Carlin documents are not just about the men.

Another fascinating part of the Ostfront campaign was the Night Witches. These were women who were some of the greatest fighter pilots in the Russian air force. They flew old WWI style by wing planes (with no parachutes, by the way). They had a gift for flying at night. They would climb high and then kill their engines and glide silently toward earth - and the German trenches. Once they were incredible low, they would pull out and level out and begin bombing the Nazis, who had no idea how the bombs would suddenly burst from a completely silent night. Thus the name, Night Witches.

These are but a few of the incredible details of the eastern front, which does not garner nearly the attention the western front does. And it's too bad because many historians believe this is Hitler's main downfall. Who knows what would have happened had he left Russia alone, with whom he had a treaty in place - before he invaded? Who knows what would have happened had he offered Stalin a treaty when Hitler's men were breezing through Russia during the spring and summer on their way to Moscow and the Caucasus? Maybe we'd all be blue eyed, blond, and speaking German now?

Or maybe the Americans would have fought with the tenacity and ferociousness that the Russians did when their country was invaded. Or we could only hope. Because what the Russians were able to do against the Nazis was nothing short of miraculous.

Now I can't wait for Ghosts from the Ostfront 4 on Hardcore History.

7 comments:

Michael Kuznetsov said...

Hi, Teacherscribe:

Thank you for your attention to my website Russian Victories.

Judging by your brief account given here above I can say that, evidently, Carlin tends to use a lot of improbable and disparaging fables concocted by the beaten Germans after the World War II to belittle the Russian victories.
Since then, many of those silly fables have been taken up and carried on by the Western “cold warriors” even until the present day.
Regrettable enough . . .

Well, Teacherscribe, I am sure you are an educated and reasonable person.
So, I invite you to use your own brains and to consider a few things.
For example, you quote Carlin as telling the following nonsense:
“It seems the Russians needed a road. So they made the German prisoners lie down shoulder to shoulder. Then they hosed them down to create a road of ice and bodies. Can you imagine?”
No, I cannot imagine such rubbish. And nobody can.
Think of it yourself:
Even if one would wish to present us Russians not as human beings but as rabid beasts, nevertheless, what the hell might be the reason to make a kind of “corduroy road” of dead bodies in the already stony-frozen steppe? Bosh!
Could you really imagine the Red Army soldiers in the frozen steppes to be armed with hoses and water reservoirs just to make those absolutely crazy “ice roads” of cadavers? Trash!
And what is more: it was absolutely impossible to use a pump and a hose in the steppes in winter because the Russian frost transforms water into ice instantly. If you spit in the frost your saliva will fall on the ground as a little piece of ice.

Of course, the Carlin’s story of how the Russians were trying to cross a river is nonsense, too.
If we Russians had been such silly sheeple and intimidated automatons – as the Red Army soldiers have been usually portrayed in various dull Hollywood movies – we should have never smashed the strongest Army in Europe: the formidable German Wehrmacht, together with their numerous allies rallied from all over Europe.
But we won!

Now, a few words about the Stalin’s Order “Not a step back!”
The Order 227 was generally supported by those serving on the front and provided a welcome boost to morale. In fact, the main point of the new disciplinary regime was not to punish offenders but to deter wavers and to reassure those who were determined to do their duty, whatever its costs, that those fighting at their side who broke discipline would be caught and dealt with harshly. Marshal Stalin needed HEROES much more that he needed an NKVD body count of traitors and his main concern was to bolster those who were willing to sacrifice their life for the cause.

Cheers!

Michael Kuznetsov

Michael Kuznetsov said...

By the way, the short movie (to which you gave link above) provides wrong data.
As is widely known, the total number of the Russians who were killed IN ACTION on the Eastern Front was ALMOST EQUAL to that of the Germans. According to the recent researches conducted by Col.-Gen. G. Krivosheyevthe Wehrmacht's losses were about 7 million troops killed in action, while the Red Army's losses were about 8.6 million troops who were also killed in action.

Thus, the combat losses ratio was 1 : 1.2 – or about so – slightly in Germans' favor.

But the TOTAL numbers of the dead people on the both combatant sides differ appallingly.
The reason is also widely known – the inhuman policy of extermination which was carried out by the Nazis.
The numbers are approximately as follows: The Soviet CIVIL losses were about 13,000,000 people, while the German CIVIL losses (caused mainly by the Anglo-American massive bombing raids) were about 1,223,000 people. Thus, the civil losses ratio was more than 1 : 10 – or about so – in German's favor. Terrible!

Now, I ask a question:
What if that 'very bad guy' Stalin would have ordered his men to treat the Wehrmacht prisoners-of-war and the German civilians as much cruelly as the Nazis treated OUR people, could then a 'balance of deaths' or a parity in the 'body count' be achieved?

My answer is: Yes, easily and very quickly!
But we have never done so.

It was only due to our Russian national inborn sense of commiseration, magnanimity, and Stalin's excessive clemency that 2 million 904 thousand German prisoners-of-war remained alive and returned home after the war

Cheers!

Michael Kuznetsov

TeacherScribe said...

Mr. Kuznetsov,

I am an educated and reasonable person, as are you. That is why I am shocked to see you quickly dismiss Carlin's evidence, which is quite broad, as simply 'fables concocted by the beaten Germans." That tends to be the tactics of scholars who simply want to perpetuate their own beliefs.

In our public education system, we discourage that. In America we have started to begin to investigate both sides of an issue or conflict. Living in the north, it is a struggle to view the south's side of our Civil War, but it is a must so that we get a more accurate picture of an historical view in all of its complexity.

The same is true for modern events. We find it essential to not only understand our side of the 9/11 tragedy but also why the Taliban would do such a thing.

Carlin is simply illustrating both sides of the eastern front.

I find it foolish to dismiss historical evidence on the basis that it is supposedly spread by 'cold warriors.'

Now you might not be able to imagine such rubbish as Russian soldiers building a road out of German captives. But the horrors of war - that your own family members struggled through - must have been unimaginable. To be part of the Stalingrad bombing, where Carlin notes upwards of 40,000 women and children died is a single night, is unimaginable. But that does not mean it did not happen. To create a firestorm at Dresdin - for no apparent reason - is unimaginable. Yet, it happened and my own country was responsible. I don't discount it as propaganda or rubbish.

Now, use your brains. You are a Russian soldier and have seen your family and friends and countrymen savaged by the Russians. You cannot tell me that there would not be a hint of hatred or anger there.

You even perpetuate such anger and hatred on your very fine website - note the use of "the enemy will be smashed" and "godless scum."

If the enemy must be smashed because they are godless scum, is it so improbable to think such atrocities as freezing and then driving over prisoners of war could not happen?

I've no doubt about the cold. In the winter we routinely have sub zero days with wind chills in the minus 50-70's and our pumps and hoses still work fine.

The real reason this atrocity took place is simple. It was done to make a psychological impact. It's not hard to use one's brain to see that.

I suppose you're willing to believe that the 'cold warriors' falsified Russian journals and left them behind. As I said earlier, Carlin did a sound job searching through sources in order to give a well rounded analysis of the historical events from both sides.

This is not to discount the great sacrifice of the Russian people or your relatives. The Russian army was essential in defeating the Axis powers. In fact, Hitler's foolishness in breaking his treaty with Stalin was maybe the most important factor in the Axis powers losing the war.

But you cannot simply dismiss all that disagrees with your own personal biases as rubbish or propaganda.

Here are the links to the sources Carlin used for his show. Check them out

http://www.dancarlin.com/disp.php/hharchive

TeacherScribe said...

Mr. Kuznetsov,

I will again attempt to contain my amazement that you yet again find fault with another western source of information on the eastern front.

As far as using Stalin and 'clemency' in the same sentence is for anyone with any capacity for an open mind or reason is laughable.

A quick check of the 30 greatest atrocities of the 20th century finds Stalin's hand in two - the second world war and the purges that took place during his regime.

Oh yeah, the Soviet's attack on Afghansitan people also made the list.

Or are these simply false data yet again spread by cold warriors?

Michael Kuznetsov said...

Sir:

Thank you for your prompt response.
My previous comments might have sounded a bit sharp.
Sorry.
I did by no means intend to offend you.
On the contrary, I value your blog in general, and this entry of yours in particular. I do appreciate especially greatly your good words about my website.
Anyway, no offence meant and none taken, I hope.

Evidently, there is a kind of regrettable misunderstanding between us yet.
With your permission, I will try to make clearer my standpoint regarding some grave issues of World War Two.
Thus, I hope you will find our positions to be, in fact, much closer to each other than they might seem at first sight.
I regret I don't know how to address you properly. It would be more convenient if you would provide the readers of your blog with any pen-name of yours.

Best wishes to you and your family!

Michael

TeacherScribe said...

Mr. Kuznetsov,

I too enjoy your commentary. It is good to discuss such matters - even if our ways of viewing a matter differ - if they differ at all.

I never meant to discredit what the Russians - and your ancestors in particular - contributed to the Russian victory.

I just wanted to review Carlin's fascinating podcast on this incredible historical event, of which I was totally unaware. I also wanted to show both sides of the event, without biases - if possible.

I appreciate your feedback and hope, too, that I did not offend.

You may simply address me as Kurt.

Thanks and best wishes.

Anonymous said...

Dear Sirs,
sorry my bad English, I am half russian, half german engineer and I live in Spain. The war is always horrible but only one comment regarding “corduroy road”: I am agree with Mr. Kuznetsow, physical laws are laws in Russia too..
Best regards and have a nice day.
A. Steinle